tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post6769537193086637778..comments2024-01-14T03:16:09.597-08:00Comments on Kindke's Scrap Notes: Starvation induced apoptosisKindkehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15841418412425329998noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-4658886425027735122012-10-16T15:22:47.416-07:002012-10-16T15:22:47.416-07:00Sidereal indeed i know that women struggle with fa...Sidereal indeed i know that women struggle with fasting, and that men lap it up. I was hesitant to make these posts because I didnt want to be seen as promoting some kind of crash diet epidemic.<br /><br />Overall im frustrated with all the recommendations of "calorie restriction" and "calorie counting" to control weight. That is an exercise in futility because all you do is manipulate adipocyte volume, when it is adipocyte hyperplasia that is the issue in obesity.<br /><br />Kindkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15841418412425329998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-40415037452057635412012-10-16T13:03:15.944-07:002012-10-16T13:03:15.944-07:00I just realised Blogger ate my comment on your pre...I just realised Blogger ate my comment on your previous post. What I was saying is that your Scotsman anecdote sent me on a midnight PubMed crawl (pub crawl so to speak). Most of the papers are ancient and I can't get full-text but still: unlike the successful year-long starvation of the guy in Dundee, I came across reports of at least five fatalities after much shorter fasts. I read one study in particular where they starved nine women and while they lost weight, relapse rate into obesity was 50%, and the tolerance of fasting was nowhere near as good as the Scottish guy.<br /><br />I think this may be one of those things that works great in theory (autophagy! immortality! adipocyte apoptosis!) and in undamaged people like the Kitavans but not in practice for a lot of Western people who have been eating carb-laden meals every few hours all their lives. In my zeal to get to my "goal weight", I did IF for about six months on and off and let me tell you, the results have been devastating long-term. I felt GREAT initially, thought I'd found the holy grail, could forget about food essentially. Just as you describe, you feel invincible and euphoric, fuelled by catecholamines, but this wears off and what remains is a burning pile of ashes. For women at least, you're more likely to die or end up infertile, hairless and with adrenals shot to shit (or just regain all your weight eventually) if you follow extreme, unsustainable plans like this. The blogosphere is littered with examples.<br /><br />Ruper of all people had an excellent post calling Sisson out on his male-centred view of fasting. He completely ignored the fact that most studies show fasting to be ineffective or actually harmful to women. He is what he is - a marketeer. For this reason I do not read any paleo websites anymore, too many dangerous fads being pushed and I don't have the time to read the literature on every claim they make.<br /><br />I know CW is wrong about a lot of things but generally clinicians who actually treat obese patients are against people using fasting as a weight loss strategy. Reminds me of a recent Phinney podcast with JM where he seemed quite perturbed by it and he is a veteran of LC.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-64951979457690680322012-10-15T16:11:48.335-07:002012-10-15T16:11:48.335-07:00I suppose one way of looking at it is that GLP-1 p...I suppose one way of looking at it is that GLP-1 protects you from severe lipodystrophy while ketogenic dieting. Your adipocytes should be highly insulin resistant during ketogenic dieting from high rates of beta-oxidation inside them, without the anti-apoptoic protection of GLP-1 you may end up completely wasting away!Kindkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15841418412425329998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-66703858550195423762012-10-15T15:32:11.251-07:002012-10-15T15:32:11.251-07:00Wooo yes its a bit of a paradox, I know GLP-1 is s...Wooo yes its a bit of a paradox, I know GLP-1 is strongly associated with weight loss and a lean phenotype, I was surprised when I found that study myself tbh. long-term starvation up-regulates AgRP/NPY in the brain which invariably promotes weight gain hence why crash dieters fail.<br /><br />Kindkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15841418412425329998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-2073820458833680992012-10-15T14:52:51.434-07:002012-10-15T14:52:51.434-07:00I would be careful at jumping to hasty conclusions...I would be careful at jumping to hasty conclusions because the bulk of evidence suggests starvation and calorie deprivation long term elevates body weight if it has any effect. See crash dieters; they progressively gain weight partly because of the neuroendocrine disorders induced by starving. <br /><br />GLP-1 is given therapeutically for diabetes and those diabetic patients typically lose tons of weight because GLP-1 regulates appetite and blood glucose. they are investigating it as an anti-obesity therapy now. Obese patients and diabetic patients tend to have too little GLP-1.<br /><br />This is one of those things the CW seems to be right about: GLP-1 reduces weight, not increases it. Contrast this to insulin which invariably makes people fatter and sometimes hungrier when they begin insulin therapy.<br /><br />ItsTheWooohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12057537399918684119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-22677083812041216402012-10-15T13:33:58.956-07:002012-10-15T13:33:58.956-07:00yes, what Peter wrote about FIAF has been inspirat...yes, what Peter wrote about FIAF has been inspirational to me. since i'm so close to goal, just about any gimmick i can use to get results is "pie" ... figuratively speaking!tesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04254045589639201707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-27254947581978218972012-10-15T13:16:55.377-07:002012-10-15T13:16:55.377-07:00Im in two-minds about the fat fast now, although i...Im in two-minds about the fat fast now, although it does produce astounding weight loss its probably only just adipocyte volume because fat is a strong GLP-1 stimulant. Dunno about coconut oil in the coffee, I guess if overall calorie intake is very low it shouldnt matter.<br /><br />Metabolic slowdown during fasting is a bit of a myth, especially if its only a few days, I actually few super energetic while fasting. This makes sense, catecholamines and nervous system tone should be elevated while your fasting because your body needs you to get out and about to find food :)Kindkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15841418412425329998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-51474252522051970592012-10-15T12:31:24.360-07:002012-10-15T12:31:24.360-07:00along with the previous post, this is intriguing.....along with the previous post, this is intriguing.... do you think that a two-day "fat fast" (i.e., coconut oil in my coffee) is enough to do the job? i'm under the impression that one doesn't get the metabolic slowdown till after the third day ... not that i'd be worried about the slower calorie-burning at rest, but i do hate lower energy!tesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04254045589639201707noreply@blogger.com