tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post8367548864208522746..comments2024-01-14T03:16:09.597-08:00Comments on Kindke's Scrap Notes: Powdered food ( carbs? ) appears to be very evilKindkehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15841418412425329998noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-31554723334412190912013-05-15T23:55:57.339-07:002013-05-15T23:55:57.339-07:00This study reminds me of some of the research cite...This study reminds me of some of the research cited by Seth Roberts in 'The Shangri-La Diet'. Dr. Israel Ramirez found that rats got fatter if water was added to their chow. "Young rats given wet food gained more weight than rats given dry food, even though both groups had water available from a water bottle. The effect was huge:The right amount of water could double the rats' weight gain." (From page 153 in the Roberts book) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-25726859005335791322013-05-15T21:25:03.474-07:002013-05-15T21:25:03.474-07:00Not having access to the full text, one question a...Not having access to the full text, one question about the feeding protocol. Was the powder fed dry, or was it moistened?R. K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12869329191957913523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-3232690238914961392013-05-06T20:18:19.002-07:002013-05-06T20:18:19.002-07:00Excellent find, Kindke! I'm about to submit an...Excellent find, Kindke! I'm about to submit an NIH grant proposal to study effects of refined food chow on cognition in rats, and this will be a useful reference to include, as grist for the mill if you'll allow me that simile. I especially like how it fits in with the acellular carbohydrate hypothesis and how refining foods changes the way the nutrients enter the system, and in turn, how this changes the signaling profile of the food consumed.Aaron Blaisdellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17204484453346358921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-3477561170232818782013-04-14T02:08:59.832-07:002013-04-14T02:08:59.832-07:00"I wonder if the issue is that in rodents at ...<i>"I wonder if the issue is that in rodents at least, that whole foods are poorly absorbed whereas food pulverized to a powder is absorbed and better able to spike insulin and facilitate fat storage."</i><br /><br />Thats what the researchers and myself think is happening. Powdered food is easier to digest. This is a tough challenge for the CICO argument, because now you have to explain why consuming equal calorie amounts produces wildly different body compositions. The other point about this study is that mice on high-fat consumed *less* calories in powdered form but still achieved similar degree of obesity compared to hard-pellet high fat.<br /><br /><i>"swallowing almonds (no calories) vs chewing them vs grinding them to a peanut butter like paste, all yeild different amount of energy to body."</i><br /><br />question is, how satiating would it be to swallow whole almonds compared to chewing them a bit? I need to perform this experiment myself! <br /><br />Kindkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15841418412425329998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-17114003454107939092013-04-13T23:32:39.820-07:002013-04-13T23:32:39.820-07:00I wonder if the issue is that in rodents at least,...I wonder if the issue is that in rodents at least, that whole foods are poorly absorbed whereas food pulverized to a powder is absorbed and better able to spike insulin and facilitate fat storage.<br /><br />It may be not that rats gain fat on high fat diets, but rats poorly digest carbohydrate for energy whereas fat is entirely absorbed.<br /><br />Whenever there is a weight difference for the texture of food I would assume absorption ist he reason. E.g.swallowing almonds (no calories) vs chewing them vs grinding them to a peanut butter like paste, all yeild different amount of energy to body.ItsTheWooohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12057537399918684119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-60457960610815729762013-04-07T14:35:33.332-07:002013-04-07T14:35:33.332-07:00Really interesting.
Obesity research, flawed? we...Really interesting.<br /><br />Obesity research, flawed? well at least he didn't go all out and call it a house of cards...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00501766801191660291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-28742629221624112672013-04-07T13:18:49.333-07:002013-04-07T13:18:49.333-07:00Bill--oh yeah, hardened fat. Guess that puts a new...Bill--oh yeah, hardened fat. Guess that puts a new spin on studies showing decreased body weight when mice are kept at a lower temperature--I wonder, do they control for the temperature of the chow, effects that has on soft/hardness of the pellets?<br /><br />Still, once the food is actually inside the mouse, getting warmed up, even a solid fat like cocoa will soften up considerable.Fat might slow digestion of the carbs--but if it facilitated break up of the pellets into smaller particles more quickly, maybe there'd be an effect? I'm probably trying too hard here, I realize, there's no reason for powdered chow to make mice fatter by the same mechanisms that high-fat pelleted chow does at all.donnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02107555662488785352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-5636960312364512002013-04-06T15:05:14.122-07:002013-04-06T15:05:14.122-07:00@Donny, yes. I made a 60% fat diet based on cocoa...@Donny, yes. I made a 60% fat diet based on cocoa butter and it was so hard the mice could barely maintain body weight on it. At first, we were excited that it might be a unique effect of cocoa butter (compared to lard), but food intake measurements proved otherwise. <br />Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05022558754270362782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-46914661343148458602013-04-06T13:59:38.124-07:002013-04-06T13:59:38.124-07:00That's interesting. The silly glycemic index s...That's interesting. The silly glycemic index stuff suggests that fat should slow down absorption of carbs--but if we're talking hard little pellets, and the fat softens them up--that sure throws a wrench into the whole mess. Is there really any such thing as a "hard" pellet that's 60 percent fat?donnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02107555662488785352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-42036433065413888782013-04-06T01:31:36.608-07:002013-04-06T01:31:36.608-07:00We should not forget that potatoes can be eaten in...We should not forget that potatoes can be eaten in their normal form but that it is also used in powedered form for instant mashed potatoes and other products (dumplings). gallier2https://www.blogger.com/profile/04285836062429366578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-77522904453472846992013-04-06T01:27:39.711-07:002013-04-06T01:27:39.711-07:00Wow, why have I mist that blog entry. That's p...Wow, why have I mist that blog entry. That's probably imho a game changing paper. This would also explain the Kitavan and other tater. There's also another aspect of starches that got lost in the last years of blogo-chatter. The difference between amylose and amylo-pectine in natural form and what happens when ground.gallier2https://www.blogger.com/profile/04285836062429366578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-5467782979028886092013-04-05T17:29:38.402-07:002013-04-05T17:29:38.402-07:00@Bill: Good points, but do note that the pelleted ...@Bill: Good points, but do note that the pelleted control chow (CHO) had quite a different impact than the pelleted high-fat or western chows. Yet, the paper does indicate that the pellets of the control chow were harder in texture than the pellets of the other two pelleted chows.g2sbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15944056406789077929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-35767286699296294272013-04-05T16:36:27.432-07:002013-04-05T16:36:27.432-07:00Hi Kindke,
Nice post, thanks. I think the food t...Hi Kindke, <br />Nice post, thanks. I think the food texture per se might have had something to do with this. For mice fed normal pelleted low fat diet, every meal is like a mini-exercise session – they have to climb up and gnaw the hard pellet out of the hopper for every morsel. 24 hour energy expenditure data has shown this in the past, eg, PMID: 15561960. The opposite is true for any diet in meal (powder) form. There are definitely a LOT of problems with obesity research :/ even in mice.<br />all best, <br />Bill<br />Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05022558754270362782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-18471306104727581742013-04-05T13:09:21.288-07:002013-04-05T13:09:21.288-07:00Excellent post, Kindke.
I should transfer your h...Excellent post, Kindke. <br /><br />I should transfer your hat tip to Ian Spreadbury, who pointed me to the paper. He has some suspicions that could provide part of an explanation. To quote: "...it may be important that the Western diet resembles a bacterial growth medium."g2sbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15944056406789077929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-59007662461421176652013-04-05T09:23:20.107-07:002013-04-05T09:23:20.107-07:00Kindke is BACK.Kindke is BACK.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-46037740478136329602013-04-05T07:35:22.107-07:002013-04-05T07:35:22.107-07:00I didnt see any explanation for the obesogenic aff...I didnt see any explanation for the obesogenic affect of the powder diet by the researchers in this paper. Everything is speculation at this point, but to me it seems like initial signals from the GI tract are "sufficient" to start the obesity snowball.<br /><br />It *HAS* to be something to do with carbs because whey is a fast digesting powdered food that doesnt induce obesity. <br /><br />The other surprising finding is that powdered high-fat diets reduced the calorie intake the mice consumed suggesting increased satiety. Easily digestible fat is therefore more satiating. I think this makes sense because fat actually has to be hydrolyzed from triglycerides into free fatty acids before they can suppress ghrelin/increase incretins etc.<br /><br />My guess is that the pellet-form of the high-fat is reducing the speed that the triglycerides are broken down so the mice eat more due to a higher energy density of fat. I think this explains why liquid warm butter is slightly more satiating than cold-hard butter. maybe..... :)<br /><br />Kindkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15841418412425329998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-19822462278301948632013-04-05T06:58:08.755-07:002013-04-05T06:58:08.755-07:00irony, thy name is ... OBESITY RESEARCH. ;-)
hop...irony, thy name is ... OBESITY RESEARCH. ;-)<br /><br />hope you're feeling better, Kindke!tesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04254045589639201707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-18991123765183883602013-04-05T05:10:07.095-07:002013-04-05T05:10:07.095-07:00I think this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu...I think this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12766205<br />Was used by you-know-who to support food reward.<br /><br />Here is another, similar one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11171658<br /><br />I wonder if it isn't less about reward and more about more sugar(/fat/everything) hitting the bloodstream earlier -> high sugar spike -> high insulin spike (affecting beta cell growth?).. and, if reactive hypoglycaemia would exist (the good doctor told me it doesn't!) higher probability of it happening.. hm..<br /><br />I have had this suspicion for some time now, that flour and sugar are more obesogenic than other carb sources..Purposelessnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310957056111105419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-31336888006513168022013-04-05T04:48:32.721-07:002013-04-05T04:48:32.721-07:00Magnificient!
I hope there will be a follow-up wi...Magnificient!<br /><br />I hope there will be a follow-up with wistar rats though.. I like them better than black 6 mice..Purposelessnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310957056111105419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-827769867360256958.post-87503772108590675262013-04-05T02:23:12.300-07:002013-04-05T02:23:12.300-07:00Wow! That's a striking result. So now all obes...Wow! That's a striking result. So now all obesity research using rats has got to be re-done using powder as well!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com